[…] F. Masse September 2nd, 2008 I have tested the comment system, and successfully embedded 3 chart widgets (InTrade, NewsFutures, and HubDub) in the comment of my last post. Additionally, I embedded a YouTube video of a good piece of Jazz (WaterMelon Man by Herbie […]
It depends on whether you are a company who’s primary objective is to increase liquidity (Intrade), or maximize income (Betfair). Suffice to say, you need to come up with a commission structure which acts as an incentive for customers to bet/trade more.
–
Intrade/betfair both got it wrong.
–
Betfair should take down their base rate to 2-3% and introduce a non-flat transaction fee. (charge people for the first 50 trades every month or so). We now have a situation where 90% doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the reductions they offer. Also, they are bleeding the positional players to death and providing heaven for the traders. That was once the right strategy, but times change. Maybe one day (who knows) they will try and do something about their decreasing profit margins.
–
Intrade got the transaction-fee part right, but all the rest is wrong.
–
It’s amazing how many idiots there are out there. This really isn’t hard if you give it some thought, and look at it from different perspectives. Don’t get me started on the bonus schemes which apparently have to change every year.
“Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?”
–
That actually works Adonis. The thinking is that people won’t mind paying tax when they win. It will act as a compensation (damage control) when they lose. You’d be amazed how many short-sighted fools there are out there. Me, I hate to win and pay betfair.
The only thing that hurts more than paying an income tax is not having to pay an income tax.
–
There you have it, justice for all. Except for some of the super rich lazy bums, who eventually have to give to charity in order to feel better about themselves.
–
Jean-Baptiste Colbert
The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.
–
You wouldn’t think it, but I actually work for the bastards. At least this isn’t the US, where the American dream will soon turn into a nightmare.
I don’t think there will be an official statement, LOL.
Commission and payment structure
We provide you with a platform which enables you to place bets, in consideration of which we will be paid a commission. The commission payable is generally between 2 and 5 per cent (but subject to variation by Market type) calculated on your net winnings on a Market. In the event that you have net losses on a Market, no commission will be deducted. The amount of commission charged on a Market will be stated in the Rules for the Market and Betfair reserves the right to amend this from time to time.
If you place more than a specified number of transactions on the Exchange you may also be charged a transactional fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a transactional fee.
If you make more than a specified number requests for Betfair data you may also be charged a data request fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a data request fee.
Separately Betfair may levy a premium charge on your account should the amount of commission (together with any other Fees described in these Terms and Conditions) generated in respect of your account be less than a specified percentage of profits you have made over a given period of time. Again we will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a premium charge.
In these Terms and Conditions, references to ‘Fees’ shall include commission (as described in 11.1.1), transactional fees (as described in 11.1.2), data request fees (as described in 11.1.3), the premium charge (as described in 11.1.4), and any other payments levied by Betfair on customers from time to time. For further information on Fees see ‘Betfair Charges’ in the ‘About Us’ section of the Website and you shall be bound by these.
We reserve the right to amend our policy on Fees from time to time.
We will calculate the amount of Fees you owe us and notify the Trustee accordingly. Upon the Trustee deducting any amount you owe us from your share in the Trust assets and holding such amount on trust for us, your obligation to pay us this amount shall be discharged. The Fees will be deducted by the Trustee from the funds you have paid into the Trust and will be paid to us. Please see the Trust Deed for further details.
Any Fees owed to us will be rounded to the nearest two decimal places. If the amount ends in 0.5 it will be rounded up.
5) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Premium Charges will take effect from 22nd September 2008 with the first charges paid the following week (week commencing 29th September 2008).
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
————-
What the hell is wrong with this country ? I thought transparency was a given when it comes to fees/commission for customers.
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** paid over the previous 60 week period. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit over the previous 60 weeks, and only if the total charges paid during that period are less than 20% of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair was profitable over the previous 60 weeks, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge if they have bet in more than 250 markets during that 60 week period.
Each customer will also have an allowance in each 60 week period of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first ?1,000 of the charge in each 60 week period.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
This means that customers will never be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20% of their gross profits for the previous week.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting, plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes the commission paid on winnings, but also the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a 60 week allowance of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of ?980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges over the previous 60 weeks although you have fully used up your annual allowance of ?1,000.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?80. You are therefore charged ?20 in Premium Charges ((?500 x 20%) – ?80 = ?20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 320 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,050; ?850 commission generated, ?200 Transaction Charges and ?0 Premium Charges.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of ?50 ((?500 x 20%) – ?50 = ?50). However, the ?50 is offset against the ?1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (?950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of ?8,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won ?5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of ?125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits over the previous 60 weeks, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of ?3,000 and total charges of ?1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
1) I can’t be bothered to study all of this. I feel like they are frying my brain after reading just a couple of paragraphs.
2) My account reads $0.00 and it will stay that way. I’m happy with that. Just waiting for them to close my account. If not, I will have to do it for them.
3) None of us have to waste any more of our time with this company if we all move over to betdaq. Or will this be a case of “let betfair charge the winners, it won’t affect me”. Oh dear, oh dear…
It is a PR disaster. Even those that have no chance of being affected are setting up nooses in the attic. Their commission and transaction charges now read like the small print on an insurance form.
Companies, customers, regulators, the government, God, and God knows what else.
There is this subjective notion that we are divided. We are not. All there is, is what I call inefficiencies. But we’re in this together. There are more win-win situations than the average person could ever dream of. Our task is to detect them. We can only do that when we lose ourselves. A small price to pay for the ultimate and only truth – we are not alone.
Just as a point of information – Betfair have been censoring/removing posts from their forum on this subject. I responded to a post which suggested users start a union by saying that this was unnecessary, as all people had to do was move on mass to an alternative site the day the changes kicked in. This was removed. I then posted a message pointing out tha Betfair were censoring posts; the thread was removed. I then found myself locked out of the forum – which is now, pleasingly enough, flooded with messages suggesting the same thing.
This is an act of slow corporate suicide by Betfair. They’ve taken advantage of the fact that pro-gamblers income is untaxed to introduce a charging system that mirrors income tax. This to me looks like an open invitation a) to punters who are or fear they might become successful to go elsewhere and b) to the government to find a way of making pro-gamblers/traders pay income tax. Which would kill the exchange model stone dead.
“n favour of the idea overall, ironically it should be higher than 20% for some accounts, but it should have come with a cost cut for the remaining 99.5%of users. ”
——
Hello Ed, still around ?
My interpretation is that, in stead of stopping the cheats, betfair now welcome them. Well, they always have IMO.
[…] F. Masse September 2nd, 2008 I have tested the comment system, and successfully embedded 3 chart widgets (InTrade, NewsFutures, and HubDub) in the comment of my last post. Additionally, I embedded a YouTube video of a good piece of Jazz (WaterMelon Man by Herbie […]
It depends on whether you are a company who’s primary objective is to increase liquidity (Intrade), or maximize income (Betfair). Suffice to say, you need to come up with a commission structure which acts as an incentive for customers to bet/trade more.
–
Intrade/betfair both got it wrong.
–
Betfair should take down their base rate to 2-3% and introduce a non-flat transaction fee. (charge people for the first 50 trades every month or so). We now have a situation where 90% doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the reductions they offer. Also, they are bleeding the positional players to death and providing heaven for the traders. That was once the right strategy, but times change. Maybe one day (who knows) they will try and do something about their decreasing profit margins.
–
Intrade got the transaction-fee part right, but all the rest is wrong.
–
It’s amazing how many idiots there are out there. This really isn’t hard if you give it some thought, and look at it from different perspectives. Don’t get me started on the bonus schemes which apparently have to change every year.
“Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?”
–
That actually works Adonis. The thinking is that people won’t mind paying tax when they win. It will act as a compensation (damage control) when they lose. You’d be amazed how many short-sighted fools there are out there. Me, I hate to win and pay betfair.
The only thing that hurts more than paying an income tax is not having to pay an income tax.
–
There you have it, justice for all. Except for some of the super rich lazy bums, who eventually have to give to charity in order to feel better about themselves.
–
Jean-Baptiste Colbert
The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.
–
You wouldn’t think it, but I actually work for the bastards. At least this isn’t the US, where the American dream will soon turn into a nightmare.
I don’t think there will be an official statement, LOL.
Commission and payment structure
We provide you with a platform which enables you to place bets, in consideration of which we will be paid a commission. The commission payable is generally between 2 and 5 per cent (but subject to variation by Market type) calculated on your net winnings on a Market. In the event that you have net losses on a Market, no commission will be deducted. The amount of commission charged on a Market will be stated in the Rules for the Market and Betfair reserves the right to amend this from time to time.
If you place more than a specified number of transactions on the Exchange you may also be charged a transactional fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a transactional fee.
If you make more than a specified number requests for Betfair data you may also be charged a data request fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a data request fee.
Separately Betfair may levy a premium charge on your account should the amount of commission (together with any other Fees described in these Terms and Conditions) generated in respect of your account be less than a specified percentage of profits you have made over a given period of time. Again we will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a premium charge.
In these Terms and Conditions, references to ‘Fees’ shall include commission (as described in 11.1.1), transactional fees (as described in 11.1.2), data request fees (as described in 11.1.3), the premium charge (as described in 11.1.4), and any other payments levied by Betfair on customers from time to time. For further information on Fees see ‘Betfair Charges’ in the ‘About Us’ section of the Website and you shall be bound by these.
We reserve the right to amend our policy on Fees from time to time.
We will calculate the amount of Fees you owe us and notify the Trustee accordingly. Upon the Trustee deducting any amount you owe us from your share in the Trust assets and holding such amount on trust for us, your obligation to pay us this amount shall be discharged. The Fees will be deducted by the Trustee from the funds you have paid into the Trust and will be paid to us. Please see the Trust Deed for further details.
Any Fees owed to us will be rounded to the nearest two decimal places. If the amount ends in 0.5 it will be rounded up.
5) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Premium Charges will take effect from 22nd September 2008 with the first charges paid the following week (week commencing 29th September 2008).
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
————-
What the hell is wrong with this country ? I thought transparency was a given when it comes to fees/commission for customers.
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** paid over the previous 60 week period. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit over the previous 60 weeks, and only if the total charges paid during that period are less than 20% of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair was profitable over the previous 60 weeks, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge if they have bet in more than 250 markets during that 60 week period.
Each customer will also have an allowance in each 60 week period of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first ?1,000 of the charge in each 60 week period.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
This means that customers will never be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20% of their gross profits for the previous week.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting, plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes the commission paid on winnings, but also the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a 60 week allowance of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of ?980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges over the previous 60 weeks although you have fully used up your annual allowance of ?1,000.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?80. You are therefore charged ?20 in Premium Charges ((?500 x 20%) – ?80 = ?20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 320 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,050; ?850 commission generated, ?200 Transaction Charges and ?0 Premium Charges.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of ?50 ((?500 x 20%) – ?50 = ?50). However, the ?50 is offset against the ?1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (?950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of ?8,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won ?5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of ?125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits over the previous 60 weeks, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of ?3,000 and total charges of ?1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
1) I can’t be bothered to study all of this. I feel like they are frying my brain after reading just a couple of paragraphs.
2) My account reads $0.00 and it will stay that way. I’m happy with that. Just waiting for them to close my account. If not, I will have to do it for them.
3) None of us have to waste any more of our time with this company if we all move over to betdaq. Or will this be a case of “let betfair charge the winners, it won’t affect me”. Oh dear, oh dear…
It is a PR disaster. Even those that have no chance of being affected are setting up nooses in the attic. Their commission and transaction charges now read like the small print on an insurance form.
Companies, customers, regulators, the government, God, and God knows what else.
There is this subjective notion that we are divided. We are not. All there is, is what I call inefficiencies. But we’re in this together. There are more win-win situations than the average person could ever dream of. Our task is to detect them. We can only do that when we lose ourselves. A small price to pay for the ultimate and only truth – we are not alone.
Just as a point of information – Betfair have been censoring/removing posts from their forum on this subject. I responded to a post which suggested users start a union by saying that this was unnecessary, as all people had to do was move on mass to an alternative site the day the changes kicked in. This was removed. I then posted a message pointing out tha Betfair were censoring posts; the thread was removed. I then found myself locked out of the forum – which is now, pleasingly enough, flooded with messages suggesting the same thing.
This is an act of slow corporate suicide by Betfair. They’ve taken advantage of the fact that pro-gamblers income is untaxed to introduce a charging system that mirrors income tax. This to me looks like an open invitation a) to punters who are or fear they might become successful to go elsewhere and b) to the government to find a way of making pro-gamblers/traders pay income tax. Which would kill the exchange model stone dead.
“n favour of the idea overall, ironically it should be higher than 20% for some accounts, but it should have come with a cost cut for the remaining 99.5%of users. ”
——
Hello Ed, still around ?
My interpretation is that, in stead of stopping the cheats, betfair now welcome them. Well, they always have IMO.
This is a test. I will try to embed a YouTube video in a comment. (I used the HTML tab to insert the code.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJaH40rArU
It worked. Now, let’s try to embed a chart widget
A Democrat will be elected President in 2008.
© NewsFutures
InTrade and HubDub chart widgets, now, so they are not jealous.
[…] F. Masse September 2nd, 2008 I have tested the comment system, and successfully embedded 3 chart widgets (InTrade, NewsFutures, and HubDub) in the comment of my last post. Additionally, I embedded a YouTube video of a good piece of Jazz (WaterMelon Man by Herbie […]
Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?
A sort of “come and lose here, it’s free!” slogan?
Everyone places their bets in the hope of winning, so everyone should be “taxed” equally for being given the opportunity to win, right????
And the rate of application (say 5%) can be HALVED – at no loss to the betting exchange (to 2.5%).
This discrimination against losers simply must stop……..
Where would the winners be without the support of the losers??????
Maybe betfair would know? It seems that everyone who bets on betfair is a winner!
Adonis
It depends on whether you are a company who’s primary objective is to increase liquidity (Intrade), or maximize income (Betfair). Suffice to say, you need to come up with a commission structure which acts as an incentive for customers to bet/trade more.
–
Intrade/betfair both got it wrong.
–
Betfair should take down their base rate to 2-3% and introduce a non-flat transaction fee. (charge people for the first 50 trades every month or so). We now have a situation where 90% doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the reductions they offer. Also, they are bleeding the positional players to death and providing heaven for the traders. That was once the right strategy, but times change. Maybe one day (who knows) they will try and do something about their decreasing profit margins.
–
Intrade got the transaction-fee part right, but all the rest is wrong.
–
It’s amazing how many idiots there are out there. This really isn’t hard if you give it some thought, and look at it from different perspectives. Don’t get me started on the bonus schemes which apparently have to change every year.
“Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?”
–
That actually works Adonis. The thinking is that people won’t mind paying tax when they win. It will act as a compensation (damage control) when they lose. You’d be amazed how many short-sighted fools there are out there.
Me, I hate to win and pay betfair. 
Now then… the beauty of income tax…
Lord Thomas Robert Dewar
The only thing that hurts more than paying an income tax is not having to pay an income tax.
–
There you have it, justice for all. Except for some of the super rich lazy bums, who eventually have to give to charity in order to feel better about themselves.
–
Jean-Baptiste Colbert
The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.
–
You wouldn’t think it, but I actually work for the bastards. At least this isn’t the US, where the American dream will soon turn into a nightmare.
Looks like betfair have found a way to tax the traders/winners. The income tax.
No official statement as far as I can see.
I don’t think there will be an official statement, LOL.
Commission and payment structure
We provide you with a platform which enables you to place bets, in consideration of which we will be paid a commission. The commission payable is generally between 2 and 5 per cent (but subject to variation by Market type) calculated on your net winnings on a Market. In the event that you have net losses on a Market, no commission will be deducted. The amount of commission charged on a Market will be stated in the Rules for the Market and Betfair reserves the right to amend this from time to time.
If you place more than a specified number of transactions on the Exchange you may also be charged a transactional fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a transactional fee.
If you make more than a specified number requests for Betfair data you may also be charged a data request fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a data request fee.
Separately Betfair may levy a premium charge on your account should the amount of commission (together with any other Fees described in these Terms and Conditions) generated in respect of your account be less than a specified percentage of profits you have made over a given period of time. Again we will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a premium charge.
In these Terms and Conditions, references to ‘Fees’ shall include commission (as described in 11.1.1), transactional fees (as described in 11.1.2), data request fees (as described in 11.1.3), the premium charge (as described in 11.1.4), and any other payments levied by Betfair on customers from time to time. For further information on Fees see ‘Betfair Charges’ in the ‘About Us’ section of the Website and you shall be bound by these.
We reserve the right to amend our policy on Fees from time to time.
We will calculate the amount of Fees you owe us and notify the Trustee accordingly. Upon the Trustee deducting any amount you owe us from your share in the Trust assets and holding such amount on trust for us, your obligation to pay us this amount shall be discharged. The Fees will be deducted by the Trustee from the funds you have paid into the Trust and will be paid to us. Please see the Trust Deed for further details.
Any Fees owed to us will be rounded to the nearest two decimal places. If the amount ends in 0.5 it will be rounded up.
5) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Premium Charges will take effect from 22nd September 2008 with the first charges paid the following week (week commencing 29th September 2008).
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
————-
What the hell is wrong with this country ? I thought transparency was a given when it comes to fees/commission for customers.
There’s more.
——-
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** paid over the previous 60 week period. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit over the previous 60 weeks, and only if the total charges paid during that period are less than 20% of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair was profitable over the previous 60 weeks, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge if they have bet in more than 250 markets during that 60 week period.
Each customer will also have an allowance in each 60 week period of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first ?1,000 of the charge in each 60 week period.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
This means that customers will never be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20% of their gross profits for the previous week.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting, plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes the commission paid on winnings, but also the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ? 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a 60 week allowance of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of ?980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges over the previous 60 weeks although you have fully used up your annual allowance of ?1,000.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?80. You are therefore charged ?20 in Premium Charges ((?500 x 20%) – ?80 = ?20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 320 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,050; ?850 commission generated, ?200 Transaction Charges and ?0 Premium Charges.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of ?50 ((?500 x 20%) – ?50 = ?50). However, the ?50 is offset against the ?1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (?950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of ?8,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won ?5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of ?125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits over the previous 60 weeks, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of ?3,000 and total charges of ?1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
My thoughts.
–
1) I can’t be bothered to study all of this. I feel like they are frying my brain after reading just a couple of paragraphs.
2) My account reads $0.00 and it will stay that way. I’m happy with that. Just waiting for them to close my account. If not, I will have to do it for them.
3) None of us have to waste any more of our time with this company if we all move over to betdaq. Or will this be a case of “let betfair charge the winners, it won’t affect me”. Oh dear, oh dear…
Let’s quote an old friend.
–
Feck N. Eejit
08 Sep 23:48
It is a PR disaster. Even those that have no chance of being affected are setting up nooses in the attic. Their commission and transaction charges now read like the small print on an insurance form.
Another friend.
–
No chatname specified
08 Sep 22:36
Let’s distroy Betfair NOW, everybody make withdrawal just NOW !!
Believe it or not, it was his idea. In one of the longest threads ever.
I disagreed.
Betfair don’t listen to me.
They need a shrink.
I’m unavailable.
Betdaq don’t have a forum. Else this could have been it.
Where are people going to chat ? IDIOTS
Betfair, you really need to wise up.
This is coming from the heart.
Focus on the consumer.
Companies, customers, regulators, the government, God, and God knows what else.
There is this subjective notion that we are divided. We are not. All there is, is what I call inefficiencies. But we’re in this together. There are more win-win situations than the average person could ever dream of. Our task is to detect them. We can only do that when we lose ourselves. A small price to pay for the ultimate and only truth – we are not alone.
jeephebrides
September 9, 2008 1:31 AM
Brighton/gbr
Just as a point of information – Betfair have been censoring/removing posts from their forum on this subject. I responded to a post which suggested users start a union by saying that this was unnecessary, as all people had to do was move on mass to an alternative site the day the changes kicked in. This was removed. I then posted a message pointing out tha Betfair were censoring posts; the thread was removed. I then found myself locked out of the forum – which is now, pleasingly enough, flooded with messages suggesting the same thing.
This is an act of slow corporate suicide by Betfair. They’ve taken advantage of the fact that pro-gamblers income is untaxed to introduce a charging system that mirrors income tax. This to me looks like an open invitation a) to punters who are or fear they might become successful to go elsewhere and b) to the government to find a way of making pro-gamblers/traders pay income tax. Which would kill the exchange model stone dead.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sp…..e_jus.html
lippy
09 Sep 06:45
DJ Sunset…………….
“n favour of the idea overall, ironically it should be higher than 20% for some accounts, but it should have come with a cost cut for the remaining 99.5%of users. ”
——
Hello Ed, still around ?
My interpretation is that, in stead of stopping the cheats, betfair now welcome them. Well, they always have IMO.
Nothing beats a good comedy show.
Monty Python, eat your heart out!
Objective:
How to endear yourself to your Customers as economic times get harder.
Strategy:
Kick ‘em where it hurts – in their wallets.
Tactics:
If they complain tell ‘em to take a hike.
Help them decide to take a hike if they are particularly DUMB!
Adonis
This is a test. I will try to embed a YouTube video in a comment. (I used the HTML tab to insert the code.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJaH40rArU
It worked. Now, let’s try to embed a chart widget
A Democrat will be elected President in 2008.
© NewsFutures
InTrade and HubDub chart widgets, now, so they are not jealous.
[…] F. Masse September 2nd, 2008 I have tested the comment system, and successfully embedded 3 chart widgets (InTrade, NewsFutures, and HubDub) in the comment of my last post. Additionally, I embedded a YouTube video of a good piece of Jazz (WaterMelon Man by Herbie […]
Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?
A sort of “come and lose here, it’s free!” slogan?
Everyone places their bets in the hope of winning, so everyone should be “taxed” equally for being given the opportunity to win, right????
And the rate of application (say 5%) can be HALVED – at no loss to the betting exchange (to 2.5%).
This discrimination against losers simply must stop……..
Where would the winners be without the support of the losers??????
Maybe betfair would know? It seems that everyone who bets on betfair is a winner!
Adonis
It depends on whether you are a company who’s primary objective is to increase liquidity (Intrade), or maximize income (Betfair). Suffice to say, you need to come up with a commission structure which acts as an incentive for customers to bet/trade more.
–
Intrade/betfair both got it wrong.
–
Betfair should take down their base rate to 2-3% and introduce a non-flat transaction fee. (charge people for the first 50 trades every month or so). We now have a situation where 90% doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the reductions they offer. Also, they are bleeding the positional players to death and providing heaven for the traders. That was once the right strategy, but times change. Maybe one day (who knows) they will try and do something about their decreasing profit margins.
–
Intrade got the transaction-fee part right, but all the rest is wrong.
–
It’s amazing how many idiots there are out there. This really isn’t hard if you give it some thought, and look at it from different perspectives. Don’t get me started on the bonus schemes which apparently have to change every year.
“Is there logic in the rule (for “tax on winnings” regimes) that winners get taxed, and losers don’t?”
–
That actually works Adonis. The thinking is that people won’t mind paying tax when they win. It will act as a compensation (damage control) when they lose. You’d be amazed how many short-sighted fools there are out there.
Me, I hate to win and pay betfair. 
Now then… the beauty of income tax…
Lord Thomas Robert Dewar
The only thing that hurts more than paying an income tax is not having to pay an income tax.
–
There you have it, justice for all. Except for some of the super rich lazy bums, who eventually have to give to charity in order to feel better about themselves.
–
Jean-Baptiste Colbert
The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.
–
You wouldn’t think it, but I actually work for the bastards. At least this isn’t the US, where the American dream will soon turn into a nightmare.
Looks like betfair have found a way to tax the traders/winners. The income tax.
No official statement as far as I can see.
I don’t think there will be an official statement, LOL.
Commission and payment structure
We provide you with a platform which enables you to place bets, in consideration of which we will be paid a commission. The commission payable is generally between 2 and 5 per cent (but subject to variation by Market type) calculated on your net winnings on a Market. In the event that you have net losses on a Market, no commission will be deducted. The amount of commission charged on a Market will be stated in the Rules for the Market and Betfair reserves the right to amend this from time to time.
If you place more than a specified number of transactions on the Exchange you may also be charged a transactional fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a transactional fee.
If you make more than a specified number requests for Betfair data you may also be charged a data request fee. We will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a data request fee.
Separately Betfair may levy a premium charge on your account should the amount of commission (together with any other Fees described in these Terms and Conditions) generated in respect of your account be less than a specified percentage of profits you have made over a given period of time. Again we will use reasonable endeavours to inform you if your activity incurs a premium charge.
In these Terms and Conditions, references to ‘Fees’ shall include commission (as described in 11.1.1), transactional fees (as described in 11.1.2), data request fees (as described in 11.1.3), the premium charge (as described in 11.1.4), and any other payments levied by Betfair on customers from time to time. For further information on Fees see ‘Betfair Charges’ in the ‘About Us’ section of the Website and you shall be bound by these.
We reserve the right to amend our policy on Fees from time to time.
We will calculate the amount of Fees you owe us and notify the Trustee accordingly. Upon the Trustee deducting any amount you owe us from your share in the Trust assets and holding such amount on trust for us, your obligation to pay us this amount shall be discharged. The Fees will be deducted by the Trustee from the funds you have paid into the Trust and will be paid to us. Please see the Trust Deed for further details.
Any Fees owed to us will be rounded to the nearest two decimal places. If the amount ends in 0.5 it will be rounded up.
5) Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Premium Charges will take effect from 22nd September 2008 with the first charges paid the following week (week commencing 29th September 2008).
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
————-
What the hell is wrong with this country ? I thought transparency was a given when it comes to fees/commission for customers.
There’s more.
——-
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** paid over the previous 60 week period. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit over the previous 60 weeks, and only if the total charges paid during that period are less than 20% of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair was profitable over the previous 60 weeks, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge if they have bet in more than 250 markets during that 60 week period.
Each customer will also have an allowance in each 60 week period of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first ?1,000 of the charge in each 60 week period.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
This means that customers will never be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20% of their gross profits for the previous week.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting, plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes the commission paid on winnings, but also the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ? 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a 60 week allowance of ?1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of ?980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges over the previous 60 weeks although you have fully used up your annual allowance of ?1,000.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?80. You are therefore charged ?20 in Premium Charges ((?500 x 20%) – ?80 = ?20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of ?10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 320 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,050; ?850 commission generated, ?200 Transaction Charges and ?0 Premium Charges.
During the previous week you won ?500 and paid total charges of ?50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of ?50 ((?500 x 20%) – ?50 = ?50). However, the ?50 is offset against the ?1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (?950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of ?8,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of ?1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won ?5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of ?125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits over the previous 60 weeks, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of ?3,000 and total charges of ?1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
My thoughts.
–
1) I can’t be bothered to study all of this. I feel like they are frying my brain after reading just a couple of paragraphs.
2) My account reads $0.00 and it will stay that way. I’m happy with that. Just waiting for them to close my account. If not, I will have to do it for them.
3) None of us have to waste any more of our time with this company if we all move over to betdaq. Or will this be a case of “let betfair charge the winners, it won’t affect me”. Oh dear, oh dear…
Let’s quote an old friend.
–
Feck N. Eejit
08 Sep 23:48
It is a PR disaster. Even those that have no chance of being affected are setting up nooses in the attic. Their commission and transaction charges now read like the small print on an insurance form.
Another friend.
–
No chatname specified
08 Sep 22:36
Let’s distroy Betfair NOW, everybody make withdrawal just NOW !!
Believe it or not, it was his idea. In one of the longest threads ever.
I disagreed.
Betfair don’t listen to me.
They need a shrink.
I’m unavailable.
Betdaq don’t have a forum. Else this could have been it.
Where are people going to chat ? IDIOTS
Betfair, you really need to wise up.
This is coming from the heart.
Focus on the consumer.
Companies, customers, regulators, the government, God, and God knows what else.
There is this subjective notion that we are divided. We are not. All there is, is what I call inefficiencies. But we’re in this together. There are more win-win situations than the average person could ever dream of. Our task is to detect them. We can only do that when we lose ourselves. A small price to pay for the ultimate and only truth – we are not alone.
jeephebrides
September 9, 2008 1:31 AM
Brighton/gbr
Just as a point of information – Betfair have been censoring/removing posts from their forum on this subject. I responded to a post which suggested users start a union by saying that this was unnecessary, as all people had to do was move on mass to an alternative site the day the changes kicked in. This was removed. I then posted a message pointing out tha Betfair were censoring posts; the thread was removed. I then found myself locked out of the forum – which is now, pleasingly enough, flooded with messages suggesting the same thing.
This is an act of slow corporate suicide by Betfair. They’ve taken advantage of the fact that pro-gamblers income is untaxed to introduce a charging system that mirrors income tax. This to me looks like an open invitation a) to punters who are or fear they might become successful to go elsewhere and b) to the government to find a way of making pro-gamblers/traders pay income tax. Which would kill the exchange model stone dead.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sp…..e_jus.html
lippy
09 Sep 06:45
DJ Sunset…………….
“n favour of the idea overall, ironically it should be higher than 20% for some accounts, but it should have come with a cost cut for the remaining 99.5%of users. ”
——
Hello Ed, still around ?
My interpretation is that, in stead of stopping the cheats, betfair now welcome them. Well, they always have IMO.
Nothing beats a good comedy show.
Monty Python, eat your heart out!
Objective:
How to endear yourself to your Customers as economic times get harder.
Strategy:
Kick ‘em where it hurts – in their wallets.
Tactics:
If they complain tell ‘em to take a hike.
Help them decide to take a hike if they are particularly DUMB!
Adonis